Mission 009 Report: Boss Fight
We’ve got a good crop of responses this month for our close combat mission. The Uberfall got some work done, as did McMurrough. We also saw some discussion of things people could have done better in defending against close combat!
Thanks to all our respondents, and congratulations to James! random.org chose him as this month’s random blister winner!
Raw Feedback
Denis (DrZak)
Nazroth
Looking at the list I can;t help but wander why there’s no Uberfall + Morlock screen to keep important pieces safe. An interresting mix of glass canon and more durable options, but not much support imho. Either way – nice writeup.
WiseKensai
I think a Morlock screen would’ve helped a lot against the Ninja, especially if you forgo FD1 on MI, especially on fragile units like nuns. It’s a difficult choice, whether you push them outside the DZ. I imagine it’s mostly turn-order dependent.
DrZak
Was only my second or third run with Bakunin .. and my Uberfalkomandos are not painted yet ..
So what do guys suggest for Bakunin lists? I am hearing how bad they are all the time ..
Nazroth
imho Bakunin is there for to reasons: Chimera spam and/or Riotgrrls full Core.
If you go Baku over Vanilla it is also worth to leverage Zeros ava.
Personally I detest Kusanagi link. It is too vulnerable. Too expensive.
Overall bakunin is not easy to master. You gotta work around some serious disadvantages so you gotta leverage what’s best.
Evolve, adapt, overcome 😉
WiseKensai
Well, I personally think there are no *bad* factions. There are certainly factions that don’t work well for particular players, and even factions that require more study and experience than others, but I think every faction is viable competitively. I would totally agree that Bakunin is one of those “needs study and experience” factions, especially if you’re not running a Grrl core all the time.
With regards to “good” Bakunin lists, that’s very scenario, meta, and playstyle dependent. It’s really difficult to give someone a list in a context-less vacuum and expect optimal results.
I think the point that we’re trying to make it is that there’s not much throwaway chaff guarding your fragile, expensive units like the nuns. You have a very strong ARO presence thanks to the two Sin-Eaters, but they’re not expendable. Every order in a 10 order list is precious, so you’d much rather keep them alive, as you did by dodging them prone.
Some really dislike 10 order lists. I will concede that they are more difficult to pilot, but I still think they are quite effective on the tabletop. If you’re willing to move to a 12+ order list, Morlocks are an excellent, cheap way of providing that expendable chaff to guard your expensive units and screen approaches to your deployment zone. I find my sweet spot is about 3 Morlocks, but this is a very personal thing.
They’re cheap enough that downgrading the Sin Eater Mk12 to a Zero FO and converting the Rev Healer to a BSG can buy you 2 Morlocks. That puts you at 12 orders, which isn’t a great spot to sit for Bakunin, but it doesn’t significantly change the character of your list composition, but it does take some of the first-turn teeth out of your list.
With regards to Maciej’s point about the Kusanagi Haris, I absolutely agree that it’s very expensive and vulnerable. I do think that carefully played, it can provide results, but a single chain rifle can really ruin your day. You have to support it with passive board control to screen them from close combat specialists, DTWs, etc. Expect to spend orders to retreat them, etc.
One potential way to address these shortcomings is to take something with Crazy Koalas, like a Lunokhod. You can babysit the Kusanagi Haris with the Koalas, and if you handle positioning correctly, the Lunokhod’s repeater can help protect the Custodier by allowing the Zero KHD to help out versus the Ninja. In this scenario, if you declare Breakwater with the Custodier, that drops the Ninja’s chance of success from 57% to 41%, and you get Normal rolls from the Zero, because the Ninja can’t split burst against the Zero since it’s not a valid target (assuming camo) at the time of Redrum declaration.The Koalas also pile on the Ninja, giving it only one chance to melt the Custodier’s brain, which at least would have helped keep Kusanagi alive in this scenario.
Your call to DTW the Ninja was the correct one, I think. Shooting or CCing back are single-digit success rates for you, and in the game scenario as it played out you have a roughly 70% chance to survive in NWI with the Ninja dying to the LFT 60% of the time.
So, in short, if you’re committing to the Kusanagi Haris, you have to babysit it, which is arguably an over-investment. Here’s one potential take, I had to drop the Sin Eater Mk12, but you get a full-on Doctor with ‘bot instead of the Moderator Paramedic:
Furries and Friends LI
KUSANAGI Lieutenant MULTI Rifle + Light Flamethrower, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (+1 | 44)
REVEREND HEALER Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 32)
REVEREND CUSTODIER Hacker (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle + Pitcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
RIOT GRRL Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 34)
SIN-EATER HMG / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 33)
DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
ZERO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
LUNOKHOD Heavy Shotgun, Heavy Flamethrower, D-Charges, CrazyKoalas (2) / Electric Pulse. (0 | 25)
10 | 6.5 SWC | 300 Points | Open in Infinity Army
Other good Limited Insertion options are a Taskmaster Lt, if you’re willing to move away from the Kusanagi Haris, in which case you should upgrade the BSG Grrl to a Specialist Operative. In any case, it’s clear that in spite of the shortcomings of the Kusanagi Haris you recovered well from LoL and stuck to objective play, so kudos to you for that!
In short, I personally think the list as is has merit, you just need to be more careful with positioning of the Haris. As I suggested, the Lunokhod can help significantly, but it’s certainly true that this list is harder to pilot than either of the two archetypes that Maciej suggested. Hope this helps.
DrZak
thanks for the heads up .. in this particular mission I decided that LI with high points cost models would help me lock down zones .. I had never used Kusanagi before and she was just an experiment, the whole list is, I am only new to Bakunin ..
I’m personally more comfortable in the LI space, but it can get tricky when up against higher order count armies. I am almost finished a moderator support box so I was planning on a moderator core and a Grrl haris .. I really only used the reverend haris because I had the models and the points, but I do agree they are expensive ..
Is there any word on the horizon of when Bakunin might get a bit of attention?
Nazroth
Bakunin seem out of the pipeline for the time being.
As for using expensive units to hold zones in a scenario: I preffer diverting points to many cheaper units, so that there’s fuel to grab objectives/zones and fuel to spend on killing stuff with specialized tools. This way opponent is forced to work around many threats plus it takes more orders to kill all the points. Riotgrrls are gold when it comes to survivability – mainly because they dodge high and mitigate some mods when shooting back. Still have in mind that Kusanagi Haris is worth the same as full 10 orders group and that’s 10 wounds…
WiseKensaiI also like playing in the LI space. I think the key to being successful in at 10 orders, especially against order spam, is having passive board control like mines and Koalas to help drain your opponent’s orders. You need to apply positional and order pressure and do so by spending as few orders of your own. Zero minelayers, Lunokhods, Taskmasters, and the Moira MSR can all help deal with order spam. Bran can also help remove some cheerleaders, but that’s high variance.
The flexibility to take more of the cooler, expensive toys is really a big draw for me. In general, I tend to gravitate towards multi-role models like the Taskmaster Red Fury: It can control an area with Koalas and its Pulzar, it can punch you in the face decently well, and it has a great gun. It’s also likely to survive an engagement. Comparing that against a Moderator link team, let’s say, you get 4 more orders for the sameish price but they’ll all die to a single chain rifle wheres the Taskmaster won’t and can safely Pulzar in response to shut down the threat (assuming not dogged). Or it can just dodge and let the Koalas deal with it.
In isolation, an additional 4 orders sounds amazing. That’s also 4 more guns shooting at something, but it takes up more real estate, the quality of its shooting degrades rapidly, it’s harder to protect, and it doesn’t bring area control unless you start to invest in things like MSRs, which eats your SWC very quickly.
One’s not better than the other on all metrics,you have to make your decision in context after deciding what you care about. If all you want is orders, the choice is clear. If you care less about orders and want something flexible, capable, and survivable, the choice isn’t as clear. Play what you want, that’s the Nomad spirit! 🙂
Edit: Almost forgot that there’s a Bakunin list in Mission 004 that may be a good compromise between LI and two combat groups. It has 4 Morlocks and an Uberfall to screen/attack things, and a Riot Grrl pain train. Here’s a link:
Nazroth
I overall agree but as a side note: you really gotta want to loose entire link to a single chainrifle to loose entire link to a single chainrifle. Where I play you catch max 2 guys with a template 😉
WiseKensai
Yes, very true. I was just setting up a hypothetical worse case scenario to make a point. Don’t deploy your link in template formation! 😉
James (GorkkTheOrc)
Hey Wise it’s James! CC thoughts about my most current report.
I initially brought the DA variety of Yuan Yuans to blow up heaters. However when the opportunity came I ended up ditching the idea and chain rifling several foes. The 1x Yuan Yuan that did enter combat rolled a 5 vs electric pulse, womp womp.
There was an almost epic duel between Yojimbo and an Umbra Samaritan. I didn’t want the Samaritan to leave it’s position and wreck face, and YoJimbo didn’t have enough orders to cause enough wounds to take him down with shooting. So I opted for the an MA4 Melee attack! However the Samaritan went with Protheon 4 as well. So both of us were on burst 2 CC 24 with nasty CC weapons. YoJimbo having DA and the Samaratin having Vorpal (yikes). We end up both critting and staying locked in combat. YoJimbo has no more orders so we stand there facing off keeping each other at bay.
Meanwhile my Tanko with empty Flammenspeer went on a rampage around the table using his contender and pistols all things to shoot enemies down. However I got to a corner and there was a Rodok with a shotgun on the other side. I knew I would lose the FTF if i tried shooting. So I did the next best thing and entered B2B using my MA1 to lower his chances of hitting with a shotgun. Lucky for me I rolled high and Crit that Rodok off the table with my monofilament sword (never done that before).
In the end while my original plan was to use the Yuan Yuan’s for melee and everyone else for shooting, but my Yuan Yuan’s did the shooting while my other units got some CC action in.
It was unpredictable but worked out! I’m already looking forward to my next game and hoping to add more notches to my Tanko’s kill count and put YoJimbo on the scoreboard as well.
WiseKensai
So, finally getting around to the discussion of the battle report. A few questions to get things started
@James: The Tanko Haris is something I haven’t had a lot of experience with, outside of a double ML Haris. Using one aggressively is interesting–have you considered going all in, taking an Brawler HRL + Tanko Haris + Tanko SMG for close range burst? This changes the character from a somewhat awkward specialist delivery system to a dangerous attack piece that can engage things out to 32″ pretty favorably, especially against TAGs or links.
James
Being my first game with Ikari in general I am sure I’ll be trying out all kinds of Haris options. The reason for the trio I took was having a specialist for moving up the board who could also bring the Tanko’s back up should they fall (minus getting blasted by a ML). If Tanko’s had any specialist options, that would be in my Haris. In terms of weapon load outs it’s tricky with 3x Tanko’s being the same 23 points. The Haris already has the light shotgun as does the brawler Doc. The reason I went with the Flammenspeer is that 1 off (burst 2 in haris) longer range template option with fire. It helps when moving up the board if I don’t have smoke coverage or just for taking out multiple units. Ur option though sounds like a super-murder squad and I’ll probably end up taking it in more “kill-ey” missions.
WiseKensai
I have an irrational love for Druze, so this is what I came up with.
Tanko Attack
GROUP 1 |1
2
BRAWLER Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
KEISOTSU HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 17)
TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
DRUZE (X Visor) Shock Marksman Rifle, Chain-colt / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
GROUP 2 |
KARAKURI Mk12, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 43)
KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
JÄGER Submachine Gun + E/Mitter / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0.5 | 18)
FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
6 SWC | 299 Points | Open in Infinity Army
I guess my dislike of the Flammenspeer in a non-ARO situation is that after the first order my 32″ punch falls flat on its face, hence the cheap Brawler HRL. You can Blitzen stuff, sure, but in all likelihood it’ll keep shooting at you even after getting E/M’ed.
James
Major problem with your list, not enough Yuan Yuan :P. I do like splitting up the Fireteams btwn combat groups though. And I totally get not liking something that’s a “one a done”. I guess my list has so much stuff crammed in that I’m looking to cut down in anyway possible. And I trust in my BS 13 Tanko to at least get something out if his Flammenspeer shot. If all else fails, smoke from other sources and get my shotgun in there.
I do want to try a lone Druze though since they seem extremely useful.
WiseKensai
@Wyatt: Definitely a great plan to double-Electric Pulse! Excellent use of CC tactics and definitely something to highlight in the end of month report. I’m looking forward to seeing more of your work in future battle reports! Getting dropped on by a bunch of Yuan Yuans is a pretty intense experience. Anything you picked up during the game that you would apply to the next one versus Ikari?
Wyatt
The drop troops were definitely a big surprise! Being still fairly new to the game, when James told me he was playing an Ikari list, that really didn’t mean anything to me other than I had no idea what to expect. I saw some models that I was familiar with from Julian’s JSA lists and deployed with motorcycles, smoke, and ninjas in mind.
I’ve been taking the first turn lately when I win the lieutenant roll because I find an aggressive playstyle suits me more than being defensive, and while taking second deployment certainly has its perks, I think I prefer the opportunity to put my opponent in the reactive position at the start of the game and maintaining momentum with pressure. So imagine my surprise when, after what I saw as a very productive first turn, James lands 4 yuan yuans on the table, 3 of whom are in my deployment zone, threatening my cheerleaders and, far more importantly, my lieutenant!
I had given far too little thought to the facing of the units still in my deployment zone. Once he threw my side of the table into disarray and forced me to deal with those pesky droppers, he already had me on the ropes. From there he was able to devote time to objectives while I was trying to fend him off and recover any amount of momentum. The experience made me realize that, even if aggressive play is the goal, I still need to give thought to the reactive turn.
My lieutenant was poorly placed, with no other units covering him. A lot of my cheerleaders were covering angles of approach from James’ side of the table, but none were set in anticipation of drop troopers. I extended my reach far up one side of the battlefield, but that was a big commitment of resources for a single objective, and the units I sent there didn’t get to move much for the rest of the game because James had such an effective ARO nest on his side with the MSV sniper and missile launcher combo.
I learned a lot about balancing attack and defense during that game. James managed to set up a reliable parameter with deployment of intimidating firepower on a rooftop, he spread havoc in my ranks with drop troopers and motorcycles, and he moved his specialists in to accomplish objectives while I was still reeling from losing my lieutenant. I am proud of having used CC effectively for the first time in my Infinity career, and look forward to honing my skills in all facets of the game. Big thanks to James, Ray, and the whole Infinity community here in Humboldt for a welcoming and fun experience learning a new game.
Specifically on the topic of preparing for future battles with Ikari (to finally answer the question, haha), I would say I need to take care in preparing for the first reactive turn, because Ikari seems to favor overwhelming the opposition. Onyx Contact Force lacking smoke and having two MSV2 options (neither of which I brought) made things difficult. Moving up to the objectives was difficult when it risks eating two missiles from the Tanko on the roof.
I would consider bringing a Malignos or maybe a killer hacker in cybermask in the future to move to the objectives in marker state. In conclusion I suppose I just need to keep all my options in mind when building lists for a particular mission and not hedge my bets on aggression winning the game for me.
Making it to the objective while under constant threat, wading through drop troopers, accounting for my lack of smoke, and avoiding being run down by motorcycles need to enter the equation. I also need to think more on what my advantages are as an Onyx player and play to my strengths. Although, I have to admit, I keep looking at Vanilla Combined and liking what I see.
Nathan (Jhokalups)
This one actually has CC in it!
CC that didn’t go well.
WiseKensai
I don’t understand how you were planning on getting a normal roll on McMurrough. If he’s Engaged, you can’t force a change face. The Engaged state only allows “CC Attack, Coup de Grâce, Dodge and those Skills which specify that they can be used in CC Combat or in the Engaged state, as Reset.” Change Facing is not a CC skill.
If McMurrough wasn’t engaged and you were planning on moving a bunch of guys around, and stealthing someone into base to base, as per the last bullet point of Stealth that says you can move into B2B and not trigger an ARO, I guess that’s fine? Stealth does say “However, if the second Short Skill of the Order is any non-Movement Skill, then those enemies can react normally in ARO.” So now we’ve arrived at somewhat contradictory rules, which is annoying. McMurrough is granted a change face ARO since he’s not engaged in the first half of the order, and your Jaguar (let’s say) hasn’t done a non-movement skill yet so McMurrough can’t fight back as per the bullet point quoted above.
However, the timing is reasonably clear, so I’d be inclined to allow the forcing of a change face in this case. Since change face works like a dodge in the reactive turn in terms of avoiding attacks, I’d be inclined to allow McMurrough a face to face to avoid CC at PH -3. You could further modify to -6 due to MA1, so he’d be on a 10. Not great for McMurrough, but also not a Normal roll.This drops your chances to 70% to wound, 25% to KO if you have one Jaguar buddy.
I think the correct thing to do (if McMurrough is not engaged) is to move the CSU and the two Jaguars into base to base with McMurrough during the same coordinated order. McMurrough can roll CC against the CSU due to stealth rules and the timing of ARO declaration, which gives you a burst 3 normal roll from one of the Jaguars (who is your spearhead). This brings you up to 95% to wound, 70% to KO. Of course, the right call is to ARO dodge, because McMurrough knows what’s coming, which you can modify with MA1 from the Jaguars, and thus your odds on burst 3 on 21 versus burst 1 on 13 are 78% to wound, 44% to KO. This discussion also came up on Facebook, regarding the tactica that I wrote for the mid-mission update, so to Robert T Wright, I hope this addresses your concern!
Regarding the rest of the game and looking at your list, I think you lacked passive board control. This would’ve helped stop Uxia before she did too much damage, and also delayed McMurrough. Lunokhods are great for this, as are Jaguar Panzerfausts because they have ADHLs to stop McMurrough in his tracks. As I’ve said elsewhere, Looting and Sabotaging is definitely a mission where your list matters quite a lot–you really need a good attack the AC2 option (and backups) as well as a solid plan to deal with your opponent’s attack.
I don’t think the game came down to McMurrough being hard to kill in CC, so any thoughts on how you would’ve changed your deployment and list composition to better protect your AC2?
Jhokalups
With what I had, and the table. I would have held a jaguar or CSU as the reserve and the set up a split with the two Bandits being able to see back to the AC2. Doing it again I would have also had Jaguars close and able to see the AC2 and lay templates over it.
McMurrough was able to do several walk and throws out of line of sight. If he had needed to stay in the Smoke to stay out of LOS of my Camo markers he would not have been able to reach the AC2 with orders to spare.
I also should not have put Emily and the CSU up on the roofs like I did. I was trying to protect from AD which CHA doesn’t have. Having more access to my own center with CSUs, Jaguars, and Bandits would have helped protect the AC2 better.
Jhokalups Field Action Report – 21
In which Spector loses to a Highlander.
WiseKensai
Talk to me more about dropping in Raoul on turn 2, while you were in loss of lieutenant. What was the goal there? It sounds like you were happy with the way it went, at least from your post-game discussion.
Jhokalups
My goal with Raul was to disrupt and control Sprocket’s back right Zone. At the end of my active turn I was accomplishing that goal. In Sprocket’s active turn the Highlander was able to get into CC with Spector, I think I misplayed Soector’s ARO and I missed the Hawwa’s shot I could have taken at that Highlander. Had the Highlander died and Spector lived I would have likely had 3 zones compared to his two and then been in a stronger position going into turn 3.
One frustration I have with Spector is that against the Highlander the odds are about even with who is winning that face to face. I also find it challenging to get the melee AD trooper into a spot where he can CC fight someone without spending many orders or getting shot.
WiseKensai
What was the bigger picture goal of disrupting that zone? I think I’m still missing something. Raoul definitely shouldn’t be fighting a Galwegian in CC for the reasons you cited.
Jhokalups
The Highlander was the only model left in that Zone and the only model who could easily get back into the Zone. With my two zones and the zone with Raul in it I would have a good chance of keeping three zones and scoring round 2.
It’s worth mentioning that we were playing the Heck Bug cafe as a saturation zone. Which is where all this went down.
Piotr
WiseKensai
Good job helping newer players! An Oniwaban is *really* tough to deal with in Recon, so it’s hard to get meaningful takeaway lessons for a 300 point game.
I do have a question about your game versus Spiral: what did your opponent leave out to ARO? Was the way mostly clear? It sounds like the Uberfall were able to just start swinging their CCWs at stuff very easily… or am I missing something.
As always, thanks for the report. Really appreciative that you’re always contributing!
Piotr
There was for sure a Warcor. I’m not sure if Neema with Spitfire in Tri-Core was set up as ARO and if yes whether she was looking this way. If she was I just threw an Eclipse on the corner near Panoply to cover my approach.
Due to not remembering it clearly I didn’t include it as partially irrelevant. Warcor was there but due to Tot Immunity changes I just ignored him and carried along to my targets.
He got during that same turn taken down by Zondnautica following up Chimera eating her unused orders.
(also I just noticed that Draal near Chimera is on the edge of a building – the pictures were taken after my turn, on his turn he moved up to the edge in Prone to shoot down Zondnautica).
As to Oniwaban. First of all you never mentioned “only 300p games” :P. Secondly there was an error in my deployment during the second game. Should the Fusilier start in Prone the Oniwaban would have taken a bullet from Father-Knight for free on approach or shoot with both of them at the corner. As the games happened at the day of the new FAQ should ORC faced his wall directly on and FK be Prone he would also be able to shoot Oni so I guess that counts for counter-measures also for 300p games 😛
Why wouldn’t I contribute? I’m learning new stuff, I get incentive to try new things – like that TAG mission, recently I bought a Lizard to play a bit more with it, I just need to write a report which also gives me another insight into the game and what I could have done better and on top of all that you have already rewarded me twice. I really appreciate this initiative and hope other factions finally get theirs as well so that I can have more fun in local community doing our monthly missions 😀
WiseKensai
gotcha. Recon games are definitely great to contribute, I was just making the statement that it’s hard to translate lessons about Oniwaban from recon up to larger games, but you mentioned some good takeaways! 🙂
Thanks for the kind words. I’m trying to make the missions available to all factions, so feel free to encourage others to participate! Also, if you have mission ideas I’m open to suggestions.
Leon (Chucky)
Hello Bromads
I have a mission report i would like to submit for mission 9 (close quarters).
This is my first time doing this so i hope i have done this correct and up to standard
Thank you for your time in reviewing this.
Cheers, Chucky
WiseKensai
McMurder really did some good work for you. Sounds like you had some trouble pushing buttons though. Any thoughts on what you might do next time on that front?
Chucky
Yeah he did what he loves to do and did it well.
Im still very new to the game and nomads in general but i think next time i wont have all my eggs in the wildcat basket .
Probably reduce the Lupe Balboa to a Daktari and change my Jaguars to Alguacile FO to give me some additional button pushing options outside of the link team.
I did run the same mission again recently with decent success not having Mcmurder, Hellcat and reducing the Balboa to Daktari then adding in Intruder sniper and Moran. this felt like i had more long range attacks with jaguar and intruder shenanigans but also having a button pusher thats not part of the link team also enable me to have a back up option also. being able to deploy the moran on the opposite side of the board to the wildcat core meant not having to trek the whole board and generate all those ARO’s for my wildcats.